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	<title>Comments on: Isn&#8217;t it ironic?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/2008/08/isnt-it-ironic.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/2008/08/isnt-it-ironic.html</link>
	<description>Don't annoy a dragon, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 08:06:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: &#160; Ian Oakley: Guilty&#160;by&#160;The ThunderDragon</title>
		<link>http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/2008/08/isnt-it-ironic.html#comment-3255</link>
		<dc:creator>&#160; Ian Oakley: Guilty&#160;by&#160;The ThunderDragon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 07:55:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/?p=1751#comment-3255</guid>
		<description>[...] to this blog, who wrote a post on this subject whilst I was on holiday, I am certainly not &#8220;left with the classic comment “So what?”.&#8221; What he has done is so very very wrong. It would be wrong is he wasn&#8217;t a politician [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to this blog, who wrote a post on this subject whilst I was on holiday, I am certainly not &#8220;left with the classic comment “So what?”.&#8221; What he has done is so very very wrong. It would be wrong is he wasn&#8217;t a politician [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Paul W.E. Ingham</title>
		<link>http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/2008/08/isnt-it-ironic.html#comment-3246</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul W.E. Ingham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 16:26:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/?p=1751#comment-3246</guid>
		<description>You don’t know me but…. I’ve been conducting a gratuitous, self-appointed rear-guard action regarding the Ian Oakley affair over on the relevant string of the Liberal Democrat Voice: 
http://www.libdemvoice.org/conservative-watford-candidate-admist-to-75-offences-3118.html

I’m not sure I will have made any friends among Watford Conservatives but I have given people a little time to recover their equanimity, equilibrium and sense of reality, while getting at least a few answers to the questions that jumped into my head when I read about Oakley’s admission of guilt. I have used my thirty odd years experience in the Conservative Party to rebut some of the more outrageous allegations while engaging in a semi-civil debate with some of the key players on the Liberal Democrat side. 

Currently they are in a froth of self-righteous outrage. They want to see heads roll and grovelling apologies made. I’m sure Conservatives in Watford would prefer the whole thing to be a bad dream. It’s an issue that won’t be going away, at least until all the facts are out in the open. If by some chance CCO or the area organisation doesn’t launch an enquiry it will be up to people like TD to call for a full internal one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You don’t know me but…. I’ve been conducting a gratuitous, self-appointed rear-guard action regarding the Ian Oakley affair over on the relevant string of the Liberal Democrat Voice:<br />
<a href="http://www.libdemvoice.org/conservative-watford-candidate-admist-to-75-offences-3118.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.libdemvoice.org/conservative-watford-candidate-admist-to-75-offences-3118.html</a></p>
<p>I’m not sure I will have made any friends among Watford Conservatives but I have given people a little time to recover their equanimity, equilibrium and sense of reality, while getting at least a few answers to the questions that jumped into my head when I read about Oakley’s admission of guilt. I have used my thirty odd years experience in the Conservative Party to rebut some of the more outrageous allegations while engaging in a semi-civil debate with some of the key players on the Liberal Democrat side. </p>
<p>Currently they are in a froth of self-righteous outrage. They want to see heads roll and grovelling apologies made. I’m sure Conservatives in Watford would prefer the whole thing to be a bad dream. It’s an issue that won’t be going away, at least until all the facts are out in the open. If by some chance CCO or the area organisation doesn’t launch an enquiry it will be up to people like TD to call for a full internal one.</p>
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		<title>By: simon wilson</title>
		<link>http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/2008/08/isnt-it-ironic.html#comment-3239</link>
		<dc:creator>simon wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 08:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/?p=1751#comment-3239</guid>
		<description>I had no idea that the Conservatives in Watford were so scared of the advances of the Liberal Democrats-sounds like desperate times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had no idea that the Conservatives in Watford were so scared of the advances of the Liberal Democrats-sounds like desperate times.</p>
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		<title>By: Baht At</title>
		<link>http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/2008/08/isnt-it-ironic.html#comment-3236</link>
		<dc:creator>Baht At</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:31:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/?p=1751#comment-3236</guid>
		<description>Isolated incident my arse - too many politicians these days are the sort of idiot who did student politics and thinks that the sort of idiotic stuff they got up to a uni has a place in the real world.

Personally I'd shoot all politicians who hadn't had at least 10 years in a real private sector non-political job.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isolated incident my arse - too many politicians these days are the sort of idiot who did student politics and thinks that the sort of idiotic stuff they got up to a uni has a place in the real world.</p>
<p>Personally I&#8217;d shoot all politicians who hadn&#8217;t had at least 10 years in a real private sector non-political job.</p>
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		<title>By: Asp</title>
		<link>http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/2008/08/isnt-it-ironic.html#comment-3233</link>
		<dc:creator>Asp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 08:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/?p=1751#comment-3233</guid>
		<description>What I love about blogging is how some people don't read the whole post; and the "out of context" quoting. So, for the benefit of some (not all though), I'll just stress a few things that I perhaps didn't make clear enough.

1. I'm not the ThunderDragon. I'm a darn sight better looking for starters. Nor am I from Watford, infact, I'm not sure if I've ever been there.
My views are those of an a-political outsider with no extra knowlege of the issue; no personal relationship with Ian Oakley; and no membership of any political party.

2. I am, in no way, trying to understate the serious personal effects of what Oakley has done. Harassment is distressing for all concerned. It is only a good thing that he's been found out, and therefore (hopefully) the harassment will now stop. The magistrates have said that custody is an option for his punishment. That shows how serious it really is.

3. I think my "so what?" line has been misinterpreted. As I've commented over at &lt;a href="http://sarabedford.com/blog/2008/08/nothing-to-do-with-us-mate/#comment-22" rel="nofollow"&gt;Sara Bedford's blog&lt;/a&gt; (Awaiting moderation at time of this posting):
&lt;i&gt;"As regards my “so what”, I’m looking at it from a political perspective. I’ll use the same cliché from my posting - Oakley’s done the crime, so he’ll do the time. It’s not “so what, it’s nothing major”. It is, and it’s good that he’s been found out and will serve a suitable punishment. Hopefully it’ll go some way toward recompense for the affected persons.

However, there’s no need to make a political story out of the actions of one person (and there’s no indications that I can read that it was anything but the actions of a solitary man). To mix my metaphors competely, there’s a bad banana in every bunch.

Are there examples of other PPCs harassing candidates? Well, I don’t know - but it has happened in local politics. But, I’m talking generally. There’ll always be politicians who think it’s necessary to resort to illegal ways to obtain their goal - dodgy loans; harassment; or any one of a multitude of ways. Just as there’s people so desperate in every way of life.

Does it make it right? Of course not. But it’s the *people* who did it, not the organisation.

So, instead of just “So what?” - “So what if he was a Conservative?” He could have been a Tory, LibDem, Labour, or Monster Raving Loony. He’s been found out, as others will in the future…."&lt;/i&gt;

4 - @ Mark specifically - "Shady dealings" is just my choice of words to cover the multitude of underhand tactics that some people resort to to get where they want to be. Most don't have the same personal affect as Oakley's actions. Some have wider political consequences. Just a choice of words, I do understand the seriousness.


As I said in the post, and simon said in comments, this is going to hit the Tories hard (specifically in Watford IMHO). A lot of constituents will be left questionning if the local party is as clean as it could be, even though that guilty party has now been found out.
But, from a national perspective - that's where I'm saying "So what?" The actions of a single person should not have effects on an entire political party. That's all....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I love about blogging is how some people don&#8217;t read the whole post; and the &#8220;out of context&#8221; quoting. So, for the benefit of some (not all though), I&#8217;ll just stress a few things that I perhaps didn&#8217;t make clear enough.</p>
<p>1. I&#8217;m not the ThunderDragon. I&#8217;m a darn sight better looking for starters. Nor am I from Watford, infact, I&#8217;m not sure if I&#8217;ve ever been there.<br />
My views are those of an a-political outsider with no extra knowlege of the issue; no personal relationship with Ian Oakley; and no membership of any political party.</p>
<p>2. I am, in no way, trying to understate the serious personal effects of what Oakley has done. Harassment is distressing for all concerned. It is only a good thing that he&#8217;s been found out, and therefore (hopefully) the harassment will now stop. The magistrates have said that custody is an option for his punishment. That shows how serious it really is.</p>
<p>3. I think my &#8220;so what?&#8221; line has been misinterpreted. As I&#8217;ve commented over at <a href="http://sarabedford.com/blog/2008/08/nothing-to-do-with-us-mate/#comment-22" rel="nofollow">Sara Bedford&#8217;s blog</a> (Awaiting moderation at time of this posting):<br />
<i>&#8220;As regards my “so what”, I’m looking at it from a political perspective. I’ll use the same cliché from my posting - Oakley’s done the crime, so he’ll do the time. It’s not “so what, it’s nothing major”. It is, and it’s good that he’s been found out and will serve a suitable punishment. Hopefully it’ll go some way toward recompense for the affected persons.</p>
<p>However, there’s no need to make a political story out of the actions of one person (and there’s no indications that I can read that it was anything but the actions of a solitary man). To mix my metaphors competely, there’s a bad banana in every bunch.</p>
<p>Are there examples of other PPCs harassing candidates? Well, I don’t know - but it has happened in local politics. But, I’m talking generally. There’ll always be politicians who think it’s necessary to resort to illegal ways to obtain their goal - dodgy loans; harassment; or any one of a multitude of ways. Just as there’s people so desperate in every way of life.</p>
<p>Does it make it right? Of course not. But it’s the *people* who did it, not the organisation.</p>
<p>So, instead of just “So what?” - “So what if he was a Conservative?” He could have been a Tory, LibDem, Labour, or Monster Raving Loony. He’s been found out, as others will in the future….&#8221;</i></p>
<p>4 - @ Mark specifically - &#8220;Shady dealings&#8221; is just my choice of words to cover the multitude of underhand tactics that some people resort to to get where they want to be. Most don&#8217;t have the same personal affect as Oakley&#8217;s actions. Some have wider political consequences. Just a choice of words, I do understand the seriousness.</p>
<p>As I said in the post, and simon said in comments, this is going to hit the Tories hard (specifically in Watford IMHO). A lot of constituents will be left questionning if the local party is as clean as it could be, even though that guilty party has now been found out.<br />
But, from a national perspective - that&#8217;s where I&#8217;m saying &#8220;So what?&#8221; The actions of a single person should not have effects on an entire political party. That&#8217;s all&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Letters From A Tory</title>
		<link>http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/2008/08/isnt-it-ironic.html#comment-3232</link>
		<dc:creator>Letters From A Tory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 07:41:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/?p=1751#comment-3232</guid>
		<description>This is an unbelievably serious issue.  I don't care if he is a PPC, in fact I wouldn't care if this was done by a supporter of a PPC - I've got no time for this kind of behaviour and I hope Mr Oakley gets what's coming to him.

http://lettersfromatory.wordpress.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an unbelievably serious issue.  I don&#8217;t care if he is a PPC, in fact I wouldn&#8217;t care if this was done by a supporter of a PPC - I&#8217;ve got no time for this kind of behaviour and I hope Mr Oakley gets what&#8217;s coming to him.</p>
<p><a href="http://lettersfromatory.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow">http://lettersfromatory.wordpress.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Neil</title>
		<link>http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/2008/08/isnt-it-ironic.html#comment-3231</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 23:48:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/?p=1751#comment-3231</guid>
		<description>Well you've admitted you called it wrong, which is good.

And I'm happy to accept that this kind of thing isn't normal Tory practice.  I've heard about various incidences of intimidation over the years but nothing of this type or for so long.

But your 'so what' comment really underestimates the very serious impact this had on the individuals that were targeted and the fact that this was a serious attempt to undermine democratic politics in Watford.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well you&#8217;ve admitted you called it wrong, which is good.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;m happy to accept that this kind of thing isn&#8217;t normal Tory practice.  I&#8217;ve heard about various incidences of intimidation over the years but nothing of this type or for so long.</p>
<p>But your &#8217;so what&#8217; comment really underestimates the very serious impact this had on the individuals that were targeted and the fact that this was a serious attempt to undermine democratic politics in Watford.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/2008/08/isnt-it-ironic.html#comment-3230</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 21:18:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/?p=1751#comment-3230</guid>
		<description>"Shady dealings"? 

I think you've badly misunderstood the seriousness of what happened. Here's an extract from http://sarabedford.com/blog/2008/08/removing-the-cancer-from-watfords-politics/

The incidents have included:

    * anonymous leaflets, alleging that LibDem councillors and candidates were convicted child sex offenders;
    * fake leaflets purporting to be from the LibDems, alleging that another mosque was to be built on public land, close to where the town’s second mosque had recently been erected. Another leaflet issued a ‘denial’ that a candidate was a convicted fraudster or that he had been convicted  for assaulting his ex-wife (he is happily married);
    * repeated late-night silent phone calls;
    * sexual and racist graffiti being sprayed on cars, walls, doors, fences and hedges;
    * damage to cars, including slashed tyres, smashed lights and offensive graffiti;
    * anonymous letters distributed to councillors, suggesting that the parliamentary candidate should be dropped;
    * hard-core pornography sent to activists;
    * poster boards broken and/or daubed with the words ‘f**k the LibDems’ or ‘c**ts’.

There are many ways of describing that. "Shady dealings" doesn't get close in my view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Shady dealings&#8221;? </p>
<p>I think you&#8217;ve badly misunderstood the seriousness of what happened. Here&#8217;s an extract from <a href="http://sarabedford.com/blog/2008/08/removing-the-cancer-from-watfords-politics/" rel="nofollow">http://sarabedford.com/blog/2008/08/removing-the-cancer-from-watfords-politics/</a></p>
<p>The incidents have included:</p>
<p>    * anonymous leaflets, alleging that LibDem councillors and candidates were convicted child sex offenders;<br />
    * fake leaflets purporting to be from the LibDems, alleging that another mosque was to be built on public land, close to where the town’s second mosque had recently been erected. Another leaflet issued a ‘denial’ that a candidate was a convicted fraudster or that he had been convicted  for assaulting his ex-wife (he is happily married);<br />
    * repeated late-night silent phone calls;<br />
    * sexual and racist graffiti being sprayed on cars, walls, doors, fences and hedges;<br />
    * damage to cars, including slashed tyres, smashed lights and offensive graffiti;<br />
    * anonymous letters distributed to councillors, suggesting that the parliamentary candidate should be dropped;<br />
    * hard-core pornography sent to activists;<br />
    * poster boards broken and/or daubed with the words ‘f**k the LibDems’ or ‘c**ts’.</p>
<p>There are many ways of describing that. &#8220;Shady dealings&#8221; doesn&#8217;t get close in my view.</p>
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		<title>By: Nothing to do with us, mate</title>
		<link>http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/2008/08/isnt-it-ironic.html#comment-3227</link>
		<dc:creator>Nothing to do with us, mate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 19:50:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/?p=1751#comment-3227</guid>
		<description>[...] postings on ThunderDragon (a blog hosted by a Watford Conservative, who stood for Three Rivers council earlier this year) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] postings on ThunderDragon (a blog hosted by a Watford Conservative, who stood for Three Rivers council earlier this year) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: simon wilson</title>
		<link>http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/2008/08/isnt-it-ironic.html#comment-3226</link>
		<dc:creator>simon wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:58:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethunderdragon.co.uk/?p=1751#comment-3226</guid>
		<description>"So what?" "proud to be a target"
Do you have any idea what Sal Brinton, her friends, familiy etc have been put through? All for darig to be involved in politics.
Very convenient for thurnderdragon to be absent after his support for the "hilarious" Ian Oakley-well i think some apologies should be flying about instead of the filth seen recently. This will hit the Tories hard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So what?&#8221; &#8220;proud to be a target&#8221;<br />
Do you have any idea what Sal Brinton, her friends, familiy etc have been put through? All for darig to be involved in politics.<br />
Very convenient for thurnderdragon to be absent after his support for the &#8220;hilarious&#8221; Ian Oakley-well i think some apologies should be flying about instead of the filth seen recently. This will hit the Tories hard.</p>
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